Note: This is the transcription of an interview with Scrambled Leggs author, Sally Franz.  The interview has been edited for clarity and ease of reading.  For the audio of the interview, check out Hospital Humor, an Interview with Sally Franz.

Sally Franz

Welcome everyone to today’s episode of Humor Talks, where I talk with some of the thought leaders of humor in life and in the workplace.  Today we are talking with Sally Franz, author of the Amazon.com Best Seller Scrambled Leggs: A Snarky Tale of Hospital Hooey.  Thank you for joining us Sally.

Oh Drew it is really my pleasure.  I really admire your work.  I can’t think of anything we need more than humor in the workplace.

Thank you.  I have certainly been trying to do that, and that’s what initially caught my eye about your book, reading the description of it.  The book doesn’t necessarily apply to the workplace but it applies to life in general.

Why don’t you tell us what Scrambled Leggs is all about?

Well about 5 years ago I was skiing, on a retreat with a bunch of kids and within a half-an-hour, I was paralyzed from the waist down.  Oops, didn’t see that in the day planner.

I got dragged around to various hospitals and then air-lifted home, which cost $15,000.  And did you know, when you pay $15,000 for a one-way airline ticket, you don’t have to put the tray table up on landing?  That’s pretty cool.

Anyway, that’s where the story starts.  But then I found out that getting paralyzed was just the beginning of my problems.  The real issue was that hospital staffing has not changed in the 30 years since I had my kids–it was top-down management and the mentality from the staff was “You’re stupid, we’ll tell you what to do.”  It was a nightmare; I couldn’t believe it.  I was powerless and didn’t know what to do because people weren’t listening to me.

So I did what any good stand-up comic does: I started to take really good notes.  The only tricky part was hiding my notes so the nurses didn’t smother me with pillows, but other than that…

I spent about a year in rehab learning how to walk again and I just took copious notes.

So Scrambled Leggs is a book about that experience of going from one moment skiing on a mountain to the next moment not being able to move your legs, and the journey that takes place after that–the emotional roller coaster as well as the thoughts you had in that moment.

You know in the 60′s there was a book called Black Like Me. I thought maybe I should have titled this Gimp Like Me because for a very short period of my life I got to find out what it was like to be in a wheelchair and be treated like an idiot.

I say on the back of the book, “If you wonder how to treat someone in a wheelchair, assume they are smarter than you are and you’ll probably be right.”  There’s only a small minority of people in wheelchairs who are also retarded.  It’s not the same thing.

When you are in a chair, everyone around you is stupid, they don’t know what to do.  It’s simple, just talk to the person in front of you.  But people don’t do that.  You go out to dinner with friends and the waiter asks your friend what you want when I’m sitting right there.

The other thing I learned was that prior to being in a wheelchair, I wasn’t thinking much about being in a wheelchair.  I watched the wheelchair Olympics once but that was about it.

Here’s a question, what does an ocean liner, ice skates and a wheelchair in common?  Give up?  No brakes!

No brakes.  They do have these paddle things on the wheels that are just stabilizers so the wheels don’t turn when you’re parked, but they don’t have brakes.  So if you’re going up a ramp and half-way up you get tired, too bad, keep pushing, because you’ll go backwards like a Mel Brooks scene if you let go.

It’s the small things you don’t think about a lot of the time, the things that we take for granted.

And that’s one of the great things about your book–it gives insight into that.  It tells the story from the perspective of someone who is in a wheelchair that is very conscious and aware of those difficulties.  And from that you share some tips for people who are caregivers to someone who is ill or injured, things to keep in mind when you go to visit this person in the hospital.

Hopefully many of us will be lucky enough to not have to experience a life-threatening injury, illness or anything that puts us in the hospital for awhile, but unfortunately it may happen to someone we know.  The tips you provide are great for people who not only are experiencing an injury or illness but also the people who are interacting with people in the hospital.

One example is if you are visiting someone who’s very ill, maybe on morphine, don’t turn on your favorite TV show.  Even if they look comatose, or are comatose, they can hear, and you don’t want to force them to listen to loud violence, like The Unit or 24.

Don’t do it.  Just go hold their on hand, rub a little lotion on it, and talk quietly.

Also don’t come in with five friends and start bragging about all the cool stuff you’ve been doing since they’ve been flat on their back.

I was never sick a day in my life. I was in the best health of my life when it happened.  I went mountain climbing, rock climbing, kayaking, skiing, and I didn’t like to visit sick people–I didn’t like the whole idea of sick.  I pretty much thought it was a mindset and you just don’t go there.  And then when it happened to me, I realized I was pretty insensitive and better pay attention here.

But I think the book is not just for sick people or people who are going to be around sick people. People who are not sick will laugh and will drop to their knees laughing because what I do is make fun of everything that got near me.

For instance there was a nutritionist who showed up and she was anorexic.  She’s teaching me about food? I don’t think so.  Then a shrink showed up and told me “You know I’m a psychiatrist but that’s just a big word.  I can be your friend.”  It’s like “Who are you? Where did you come from?”

At one point she said, “Sometimes we can be so sad we feel depressed.”  I’m like “Oh my God, it’s Shirley Temple.” And then she said.  ”And if you’re really really sad, boys and girls, you might feel suicidal.  Do you feel suicidal?”  I’m thinking, I’m doing my new age thing. Suicidal? No. Homicidal is coming up though.

I think that’s one of the things I really enjoyed about the book–in each chapter you give a summary of the lessons you’ve learned from that experience, which I think is great because those lessons apply in many circumstances.

Throughout the entire thing there is also a great use of humor both in terms of style and how it’s written, and it’s a book that talks about the value of humor.

So how did you use humor through this experience and in your daily life?

I came from a family of five kids in New Jersey, so right there you’re funny or you don’t eat–you’re going to be left out or pushed out.  You have to be in the game, you have to be funny with one-liners.

It also showed me growing up that there isn’t anything that is so horrible that it can’t be funny.  We laugh at funerals–we love the people that have passed on–but we tell funny stories about them; we enjoy the essence of life. We don’t say “OK after we’ve mourned for five years, now we can talk about that funny time dad went fishing and didn’t catch anything but a cold.”

We laugh about it right away, and that’s been a valuable thing because my life has shifted and changed very quickly.  I’ve moved 32 times in 20 years–it’s been that kind of life–and you have to be able to laugh.

I have a whole chapter on laughing.  I laugh at myself when I go to have an MRI because I have several of them every year and I know people who are terrified of them.  That’s good because that means they’re not a narcissist because if you’re a narcissist and you go in there, all you think about is yourself the entire time.

When I hear that loud pinging noise I just think I’m like Jane Jetson getting my hair changed four different ways.  And while I’m at it, I’ll pretend I’m Bill Murray in Groundhog’s Day getting gifts bestowed upon me, like I’ll come out being able to play the piano.

I teach people that, in your mind, you can have a whole different experience if you choose to have an imagination.

That was probably one of my favorite stories from the book, when you go through the MRI and you say “Every time this bar passes over me, I’m going to be a different person or a different character.” I think it’s hilarious to imagine you in an MRI machine being a wide variety of characters.

I like that you had a different mindset or perspective–you could be freaked out but instead you take this as an opportunity to, as you say in another part of the book, have a play date with yourself, to just enjoy the time you have and make the best of it and entertain yourself.

I have two kids and now grandkids, and anyone with kids knows there are times in your life when you go “Oh dear Lord, just five minutes to myself.”  Well there you are. You may have up to 15 minutes in there.  No distractions, no cellphones, no one saying “Mommy, Mommy, Mommy.”  They don’t let anyone else in, so it’s great.  It’s like a New York City apartment; it’s six feet by two feet.

I think one of the other things that’s interesting in the book is that you have a good outlook and you use humor, but you also aren’t unrealistic and saying everything is perfect, everything is great. Obviously if you could choose not to have had this happened to you, you would make that decision.  So how do you balance humor with still being realistically in touch?

The answer is that I use humor very much the way it was used with the Greeks.  I believe that sarcasm, irony, banter, satire and wit are used to point out the things that are very wrong in our society.

I actually have chosen, in my humor, stand-up and humor writing, to use humor for justice, to say “This is not OK with me.  I’m going to make a joke so that everyone laughs but then everyone is going to have to think about the topic also.”

So it’s very realistically based.  It’s important that people understand that it’s not OK with me that if you have to use a bedpan, a nurse says “I’ll be back in half-an-hour” and may or may not be.  It is not OK with me that when I’m in pain they say, “Well next shift maybe we’ll talk to someone.”  That’s 8 hours.  It’s not OK with me that it happened to me and it’s certainly not OK with me that it might happen to someone else I care about.

So it’s really about patient advocacy and upgrading our healthcare system.  If we’re going to have a huge change in our healthcare system delivery because of the new laws, we need a lot more trained people.  And the nursing and medical staff that are not full-out doctors need to be given a lot more authority to help people.

That’s actually happening, by the way. We have a whole new group of people called Patient Advocates and some of them are actually doctors, and they are saying “We have to listen to patients.”

So to me, if humor is not baked in reality it’s just silly.  The funniest stand-up comedians, such as George Carlin, were the people who talked about real things.

George Carlin is a great example of that.  Not everything he said was a direct message, but if you think of bits like “Seven Words You Can’t Say on TV,” it was attacking this idea of censorship.

And maybe it was vulgar in the sense of the language being used but he was doing that to emphasize his point, use humor, and call out the absurdities of it.  That’s a great example of how humor can be used; there’s a lot of truth said in jest.

That particular piece is really deep philosophically because it’s really asking “Do words have power of us?  Do we choose that?”

Maybe the pen is mightier than the sword.  Certainly every war where genocide has been involved has this kind wipe-out ideology; the great religious wars are all ideology—it’s words.

So Carlin’s piece was deep. He was really brining us to task–is it words that are really offending us? Is it what words mean?  So you might giggle and laugh because he’s said some really foul stuff, but nothing the Wayan brothers haven’t said.

I heard him do a bit one time on the planet, “All this whining and complaining ‘Save the planet. Save the planet.’  It’s a rock, it will be here for millions of years.  What you’re trying to save is your own sorry butt.” I fell off of the chair.  No one had ever said that before—everyone was all Green Peace and love, and no one in the audience laughed, but I was at home watching it and couldn’t get off the floor because I was laughing so hard.

So I use humor that way—to point out injustices.  It’s very reality-based.

I also use other people’s humor a lot, I’ll watch the comedy channel for hours because it helps me in my pain management.

That’s one of the points you talk about towards the end of the book.  You share great stories about the absurdities you were going through, but then towards the end, you also talk about what life is like now.

One of things you talk about is how you deal with the fact that you are still in pain at times.  You say that you create moments that are “so overwhelmingly funny that you forget that you don’t have your health.”

Right, and I will tell the people listening to this, if you have someone in your life that is disabled—I used to hate that phrase and I think I still do—if you’re not as abled as you used to be, you know someone’s that come back from the war and is missing a limb or two or a face or something, the only thing someone who is injured wants to do is blend in for five minutes.  All we want to do is forget.

We do not want to be our condition, we’re over it.  It’s hard sometimes when you’re in a lot of pain–you’re in the middle of therapy or burn-ward treatment–to forget that you are not your condition. People will give anything to just spend 10 to 15 minutes laughing or forgetting that they are injured or damaged.

In my case, I’m in pain 24/7.  If my pain is really bad, I’ll just check myself into back-to-back comedy movies at the movie theater.  And if I’m in the middle of something and really engrossed in the story, I’m good, because redirection is one of the best things you can do for pain—get your mind off of it basically.

There have been a number of times after improv or stand-up shows where I’ve talked to people who have been very appreciative for making them laugh, getting them through a rough point and allowing them to forget for a little bit.

That’s the appeal of movies–for these two hours I’m going to allow myself to escape to this other world where my bills aren’t piling up or I’m not in pain.  And certainly you want to be able to handle those things once you leave, but everyone needs a break every now and then from the this crazy, serious world that exists.

As Einstein said, the best thing you can do for creativity is to day dream.  Escapism is actually a form of Zen because you are putting your brain into a different mode other than crisis mode and stress mode.  And that’s when the body can really think and come with a plan to solve some of the problems that are back on the desk.

If you don’t do it, and you just kind of keep pushing yourself and pushing yourself, you are, as my sister and I love to say, “Robbing Peter to pay Paul.”   People ask what do I do all day. I say I manage the family estate, which means if I only give Visa $100 instead of $150 and I take that other $50 and I give it to the doctor so that maybe this guy won’t call me.

Everyone’s playing these games and challenges, and I was never really very good at math, so yeah, I need to go to the movies a lot.

20:18 – One of the other things I really liked about the book was the non-laughter kind of humor.  A big focus of mine is that while laughter is a huge part of humor, it’s not the only thing.

Humor can be you in an MRI machine and entertaining yourself by changing characters everytime the bar passes over you.  You’re doing some for amusement, something out of the ordinary.  And I think one of my other favorite tips you share is making a list of simple things that you love and then choosing to have at least one of them in your life every day.  Can you talk a little bit about what that means?

Well I learned this at a Tony Robbins seminar.  He said people are going to be miserable if their list for a perfect, happy day includes winning the lottery, marrying Mr. or Mrs. America, having all of the bills paid, blah blah blah.

There are a lot of people like that.  They say they will not allow themselves to have any happiness or laughter or enjoy themselves until life is perfect.   Tony said you have to have a long list of “it’s for free” things you can access, and allow yourself to happy with those few things.

For instance: going to the park, smiling at a child and having them smile back; or going to a park and throwing peanuts out and watching 5,000 pigeons come down;  or better yet, sitting at a park, throwing peanuts across to someone else’s bench and watching 5,000 pigeons come down on them.

You have to have something that is funny and fun.  I say to people, particularly moms , if you splurge and buy homemade cookies at the bakery, buy three for yourself and hide them in the car where the kids can’t find them, and actually eat them all by yourself.

Some people say “that’s ridiculous,” but for some people that’s a splurge and that’s a kindness that they can do for themselves.  I think it’s about being gentler and kinder to yourself, and letting that be fun and funny.

A lot of times it can be those small things.

I was just reading in an article today about a research study at The Ohio State University that talked about people who have depression.  They’re finding that it’s sometimes a change in thinking that’s more helpful than a change of behavior.

I think small things like that are ways of changing your thinking.  Instead of saying “For me to have a good day, I have to do X, Y, and Z—I have to wake up at the right time, work out, get at least 18 things done at work, etc etc,”  instead, for me to have happiness  all I need is to smile, see a certain color that I enjoy, walk past flowers or eat a cookie for 5 minutes by myself.  That small change in thinking can go a long way in terms of your overall attitude and health.

I really think that there is a lot of science that backs this up.  I’ve read quite a few studies myself that talk about attitude and the need for individuals to harness in the difference between reality and expectation.  Sociologists will say that if you live a life where what you expected and what you got are too far apart, there’s going to be a lot of rage and anger in your life. So what do you do?

Let’s say you wish you could afford a BMW and you can’t even afford a beat-up Jeep.   You can say to yourself, actually, I like the idea of a beat up jeep, now that I think about it.  Who told me I had to have a BMW when I’d rather be bouncing around in a jeep and be able to take it on the beach or off-track.

It’s about examining where you got these beliefs.  I have a Twitter account and Facebook group called “Sally Franz Uncorked,” and today’s message was, “I just looked up and saw I have six tubes of lipstick all different colors, that match different outfits.”

I stopped myself and thought, who told me that I had to match my lips to my clothes?  Where did that come from?  Why don’t I match my nose or my elbows to my clothes with color? Think of all the possibilities!

It’s like all of the sudden you look at how we’ve been programmed by our culture, not to mention Madison Ave, to buy things, and you are miserable.

You have to really reconstruct what you want to do and what you’re choosing to say makes you happy and makes you feel good about yourself–not an easy task.

Your book is full of a number of humorous anecdotes that talk about the different stories and different situations of your experience.  Is there one in particular that you want to share with the listeners or even one that’s happened since the end of the book?  Just a humorous example of something that has happened?

Wow, there were so many things that were just ridiculous.  I think the thing that was really funny for me was looking at the distinction between what I thought would happen and what did happen.

I tell a funny story about the first time they tried to put me in a machine to help me walk (this was in the hospital before I got to rehab).  It was like a Mister Machine or a borg thing that they strapped me into, with wheels and gears, and dragged me around the four corners of the building, back to my room, and they were dragging my toes.

They kept saying in the beginning “You can do it, you can do it.  That a girl. Good job.”  Which is what you tell a 2 year old when you’re trying to potty train her.  As I got around the last wing, heading towards my room, it was more like “Well you seem a little tired.  Maybe we’ll try this again next time when you’re not so tired.”

It was like “Whoa, how did this somehow become my fault, I’m the one that’s paralyzed.  You’re the one that’s been dragging me around.  My toes feel like they’ve been dragged on industrial carpet and Emory boards for the last half hour. “  I was like “Um, when do I get to vote?  When did I give up my vote? I want to vote on how I get treated and how I get talked to.”

Sharing these stories is my way of trying to make fun of a really horrific situation.  People just walk into a room, hoist you on a machine, drag you around, and then at the end of the day it’s your fault since it didn’t work.  That’s when I’m like, whoa, get me out of here.  One of my chapters is called “Vote Me Off the Island, Please. “

People who are going through a horrible time can read this book.  Even if that horrible time isn’t about  illness, I promise you you’ll begin to get a sense of how you can laugh at yourself and the situation.  And tell the truth at the same time.

Awesome.  You can find the book scrambled legs on Amazon.com as well as your site ScrambledLeggs.net.  You have a Twitter account and a Facebook page as well.  Anything else you’d like to make sure listeners are aware of?

Yeah I would love to have people go to my site or you can go to Amazon and leave a review.  You can also reach me at sallyfranz on Facebook.  I would love to talk to anyone who wants to talk to me about this.

And I certainly appreciate you talking to me, Drew, this was really fun. Thanks!

It was a blast for me as well.  Thank you very much for joining us Sally and have a great rest of the day.

Great, you too!

That concludes the interview.  For more, you can listen to the audio on Sally’s interview or check out her book.

Scrambled Leggs by Sally Franz

Related posts:

1. Humor Lessons from Scrambled Leggs
2. Hospital Humor… An Interview with Sally Franz

Note: This is part 2 of an interview with The Gift of Stress author, Zohar Adner.  For the audio of the interview, check out The Gift of Stress, an Interview with Zohar Adner.

Lucky 7s

Drew: As you mentioned, one thing that causes stress to you may not to another person and that’s actually the first R in your Seven Rs of Stress Release, to Recognize.  What are the Seven Rs of Stress Release?

Zohar: The Seven Rs of Stress Release are a method I came up with about 5 years ago where it breaks down any kind of situation and helps you get clarity on what you want, where you are and what you can do about it to bridge the gap (the gap is one of the four diffusers we can get to later).

If you’re stressed, your ideals aren’t matching your current situation.  You don’t want things to be the way they are, so there are some issue there and that tension caused is being expressed with stressed.

The Seven Rs break down to following:  The first one is Recognizing how you want your ideal.  The second one is Reviewing your current situation.  The third one is Revealing overlaps. So now you’ve revealed what you want and what you have. Now what’s working for you and what isn’t.  This way you know where to focus.

The fourth one is Releasing your outdated ideals, your ideals that are holding you back.  What do you no longer need to work towards, what are you holding on to that’s not working for you.”  The fifth one is Raising the likelihood of actually getting those ideals we have left over.  This is the more typical work of taking action steps to move forward.

Let’s take the example of losing weight.  The first R would be, ideally, what would you weigh and how would you be feeling about yourself in the process.  The second would be what do you weigh now and how are you feeling about yourself now.  Then we look at what’s working for you, what isn’t and also becoming aware of what people are supporting you, which ones aren’t.  And you’re getting more clarity on the reality of the situation and what’s working for you and what isn’t.  Then we evaluate why you want to lose this weight, and why don’t you.  Where is this desire coming from? Are you OK with it? Do you need to lose as much weight as you initially thought?

This way your getting clarity on the work on have to do, which is stage 5. Then you set up your plan.  Is it a diet, or exercise? Who are you going to speak to? What are you going to eat?  This is the problem-solving that a lot of people are more familiar with.

Then you have the sixth part of Reminding yourself of what you have to do achieve your goals.

And it’s this reminder thing that a lot of people overlook but this is the thing that helps anchor you into that moment and that progress so you don’t slide back into your old behaviors and habits.  It helps you stay with the progress you just worked five steps for.

Drew: The remind yourself is one that I think is super-important.  Each of them are, especially being detailed and quantifying what you want to do as opposed to keeping it vague like “I want to lose weight” versus “I want to lose 10-pounds over the next three months.”

I think the remind yourself is so important and also where you can have some of the fun and where you can bring in some humor–thats what I tend to do a lot when reminding myself .

I went through this process with waking up.  I like to hit the snooze button and reminding myself by setting an alarm or ringtone that is less annoying than the annoying “rehn rehn rehn” sound, setting an alarm that is more joyous.

I have a couple of different songs that remind me that I want to wake up because it’s an entirely new day and there are plenty of new opportunities, as opposed to the mindset that the alarm is interrupting my sleep and is a nuisance.  It’s like it’s a great thing I have this alarm clock because now I can get up and hit the day running.

So I think reminding yourself is helpful, and then when it’s tied to a trigger or motivator that is positive, it can help you more likely succeed, whether it’s waking up or exercising or whatever it is you’re triggering.

Zohar: Absolutely.  That’s a fantastic example.  I used the same thing for a person who was on the phone a lot.  She’d get upset when people would call so we changed her phone ringtone.  Your alarm is perfect.

To continue the weight loss thing, you can ask yourself where you are most vulnerable. Maybe it’s the fridge, so you post a little note on it that says “hey, do you really want that?”  And you find out.  It’s a question you ask of yourself right at the moment.

Somebody was talking to me about how they want to take the stairs more than the elevator.  I said “Great, is there some kind of sign you can put up that only you can see that will remind you of your choice when you see the elevator?”

It’s these kinds of things that can help just in that moment.  And I prefer physical things.  Something that engages the senses.  Particulary visual, auditory or tactile.  They’re usually the easiest.   Of course if you can find a way to create the smell of cinnamon and use that as a reminder, that’s great too.

Drew: You can do the same thing with desktop backgrounds, ringtones, moleskin notebooks, stuff on your refrigerator, etc.

I know some people put something on their wrists so that every time they say a certain type of statement they have to change it to the other wrist.  It’s just a pyhsical manifestation of what it is they are trying to change which I think it pretty cool.

I think it’s a great book, especially when you’re ready, it can be a big help.  But you are also a stress release coach and author of stopstressingout.com.

What is it that a stress release coach does?  Do you go out and, if someone is causing stress in someone’s life, you take them out?  What is it that you do?

Zohar: That’s more of a stress-release hit man .

stopstressingout.com

I think there’s one part of people that do just want to get rid of stress, and when you’re in a really bad place, maybe that’s the best course of action.  If you’re going through some kind of panic or anxiety and you can’t just focus, then, yeah, let’s focus on doing something that will bring you back to a calmer state–some breathing or exercise, something fun to laugh at or with that’s going to improve your mood (another one of the diffusers that we mentioned).

But with stopstressingout.com, I have a blog; a newsletter; I’m starting my own radio show and a few other projects to engage with people 1on1; I do groups, workshops, and private coaching to help them.  Clients come to me and tell me that stress is an issue, so we take a look at what might work for them.

When you focus on activities, we start with the recurring ones.  90% of stress in our lives is recurrent.  Things that happen over and over again that we just haven’t taken care of.  Maybe it’s a particular relationship, maybe it’s a boss.

We take a look at those things because we know they’re going to happen.  And by taking care of them, it’s going to improve everything else and you’re going to be better able to handle those one-off occasions of stress.  That’s the first place I start with people, with what’s going on.

When we’re able to break things down through the diffusers and the Seven Rs of Stress Release, that’s where the progress is made.  Things get clear very quickly because clients are talking to someone that asks the right questions and they go through the process quite naturally.  It doesn’t feel like work, it feels like a conversation.  A really insightful, eye-opening conversation.

Which is the way it’s supposed to be.  And the first time you go through the book, you might think “I’m doing some work.” But once you’ve done it a few times, it’s just easy.  And you’re excited:  ”What am I going to learn about myself this time? How am I feeling about this? Awesome, I’m feeling like progress is made, it’s giving me extra encouragement and incentive and motivation to move on and act on this stuff.  And life is good.”

Drew: One of the things you talked about is diffusers.  Something that is near and dear in my heart is humor.   What role do you think humor plays in either being a diffuser or helping to combat the stressful world that we live in.

Zohar: The first diffuser is narrowing the gap between your ideal and your current situation.  To narrow that gap, to use the weight-loss example, the closer you are to your ideal weight, the less stress you’re going to feel.

The second diffuser is your attachment to your ideal.  If you’re feeling more detached about weight loss, maybe you don’t care about losing as much weight–if it’s not important to you there’s going to be less stress.  If you care more, there’s going to be more.

The third one is familiarity with bridging the gap.  If this is something you’ve done a bunch of times, then you know how to deal with it and it’s not as big of a deal.  Sweet, lets find more things that you’re aware of and make more connections.  This could be a time for some humor.

But the most obvious connection to humor is the fourth one and that’s improving your mood.  If you improve your mood then things don’t stress you out as much, and that’s physiologically proven.  Laughter itself, whether it’s fake or authentic (our body can’t tell the difference) has so many healing properties: it boosts your immune system, makes you feel great, releases endorphins. Everybody likes to laugh and when you’re laughing, you’re feeling better.

So as far as diffusers and humor, I normally associate it with the fourth one, mood.   But it has side benefits and some tangents, like familiarity with making connections.  The more familar you are with things, the quirk there is that it’s more humorous.  That’s how humor works: you take something familiar, add a little twist to it, and it’s like “oh yeah” and you feel good about yourself.

I find that the whole process is made easier with humor and I like to apply it in liberal doses with a dose of perspective and not holding anything too sacred.  Because if you’re holding on to these ideals and rigid attachments and it must be “this way,” there’s no room for humor and there’s no room for adjustments.

Humor really challenges what you’re really holding on to. It helps to have the mindset of nothing is sacred, everything can be challenged, but nothing has to be tossed out.  If you can’t challenge it, then you really are a victim of it and you don’t have control over it.  And that’s really important to be able to look at.

Drew: You make some great points, certainly with just boosting your mood.  We’re heading towards the tail end of the call.  With that tangent of humor, can you share any humorous stories from your stress release coaching or from writing the book?

Zohar: Well one of the biggest ironies was that writing the book was one of the most stressful things I’ve done by far.  I was laughing about it during the process and I can laugh about it more now,  but it’s true.  Writing is not something that I am really familiar with or do naturally, but it is something I care about a lot.  And I definitely had to use liberal doses of humor to get through the process.

As far as a humorous anecdote, people come to me with stressers that are really serious and big concerns to them, and I’m with them and understand it, but the funny thing is that afterwards we sometimes laugh about it because everything has a humor component to it.  You get some perspective on it and you’re no longer stressing out about it and when you’ve got that, everything feels much better.  Everything has that humor component to it.

Sometimes people come to me and have come to me really stressed out about their hairstyle–should they cut their hair or not?  People who’ve lost 50 pounds and stress out about those last 5.  After a while they realize they lost 50, they’re great.  That’s something we’ll end up laughing about.

Drew: That’s true.  The hair thing–I sometimes joke, and it’s partially true, that I have a minor identity crisis any time I go to get my haircut.  Do I keep the same haircut I’ve had for a long time or do I switch it up?  What do I tell the barber? What do I need to say? How will it affect how I look?  Ultimately I end up not caring too much because I figure I don’t have to look at my haircut that often; I see it maybe in the morning after showering but after that I don’t have to see it for the rest of the day, but I can see where some people would really be hinging on that.  Some people stress about hair, some people stress about leading a multi-million dollar company.  As we talked before, it’s all about your own perspective and situation.

Zohar: Exactly.  Even just today I was hanging out with a group of people.  Things were a little slow so I took out some juggling scarves.  This is just juggling scarves in a room full of people and I was the only one that knows how to juggle.  But people were so intimidated and stressed out about doing it that there was major hesitation.  It tooks some brave people to say “OK, I’ll try,” and then people’s fears started breaking down.  And it’s OK, there’s nothing at risk here.

I don’t even know how much your ego is tied up in this, nobody has any expectations of you being able to do it.  It’s just about if you are willing to step up and try.  Even just that, some people freak out about it.  I get it, I have my own quirks, but it’s about being open to them and challenging them and being able to say, “maybe there’s a better way.”

The Gift of Stress

Drew: Very rarely will you be in a life or death situation where the ability to juggle scarves will come into play…

Great, well thank you very much Zohar, is there anything else you’d like to point people to?  Readers can visit stopstressingout.com for your coaching and find your book on Amazon or at thegiftofstress.com, but is there anything else you’d like to mention?

Zohar: Basically when you look through the site, the blog, or the book, if you have any questions, I am always open to helping people get clarity on an issue or on what’s going on.  That’s the invitation to everyone.  Check things out, be in touch.

Drew: Excellent.  Thank you for joining us today and have a great day.

Zohar: Thanks, Drew.  Great talking to you.

Related posts:

1. The Gift of Stress, Part 1
2. The Gift of Stress, an Interview with Zohar Adner
3. Why Stress Isn’t a Bad Thing

Note: This is part 1 of an interview with The Gift of Stress author, Zohar Adner.  For the audio of the interview, check out The Gift of Stress, an Interview with Zohar Adner.

Zohar Adner

Drew: Welcome everyone to another installment of Humor Talks with one of the thought leaders in the humor area.  Today we are joined by Zohar Adner, a stress release coach, the author of The Gift of Stress – How to Act on the Urgent Message That’s Trying to Save Your Life, and an all around great guy.  Welcome Zohar.

Zohar: Thank you, Drew, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Drew: I wanted to first start talking about something I know you’ve been working on a lot lately and that’s your book, The Gift of Stress.  I could summarize what I took from the book, I thought there was a lot of great stuff in there, but I figure you’re the one that wrote it, you might have some good insight as to what the book is about.

Zohar: Sure.  Basically, my concept of stress is that it’s an urgent message indicating that something important to you is threatened or absent, and that message will just keep getting louder and louder until you take action on it.

This is coming from a place of protection and concern for you–that’s all the body is trying to do.  It’s saying, “Hey, let’s help each other out. You’ve told me this is important, let’s take action on it.”  And until you hear it, it will get louder and louder, and that’s why stress has a really really big impact on our lives and body: the way we interact with each other and the way we feel, and is related to a lot of disease.

Drew: It sounds likes it’s like the engine-light in your car.  It may be blinking at first when it comes on, a notification your body is saying that something’s not right here.

Zohar: Yes, and then it becomes a really loud alarm, and then a blaze.

Drew: Like your engine on fire.

Zohar: Yes.  And so my whole concept is that instead of dealing with all the symptoms it’s causing, this blinking light, what can I do to get rid of the reason behind the light.  If it’s a car alarm making noise, don’t focus on what can I do to quiet it or muffle my ears?  Instead, how can I pay attention to what it’s trying to tell us, and then it’ll shut itself off.

To me that means you are no longer stressing out about the same thing, because you’ve dealt with that issue and can move on.  And stress is happy because it feels like it’s doing it’s job, and I know I’m anthropomorphizing stress, but it’s there to help, so let’s listen to it.  That’s what the book is about.

Drew: I think one of the key takeaways for me is the definition you give for stress.   What is that definition and how did you come up with it because it’s a little different than the Webster’s Dictionary definition.

Zohar: My definition of stress is that stress is a reaction that commonly occurs when the current situation doesn’t match the ideal version of that situation.  And I came up with it because when you talk to people about what they consider stress, there are a lot of symptoms that get listed or situations.  ”This person’s stressing me out.” “My muscles get tense.” “My heart beats faster.” “I can’t sleep.”

Those are really just symptoms.  That wasn’t working for me when I was trying to do something about it because you have no idea what the problem is. By working with people and thinking about it, I came up with this definition.  And what it does is break things into very distinct categories that you can now look at and control.

Control is a big thing about stress.  You feel stressed a lot of times when you don’t have control, and here’s a way to get it back.

Drew: I think it’s a great way to shift focus from the symptoms of stress to the root of the problem.

The Doc is In

One of the passages that really resonated with me was the idea of control.  You say, “We always have the power to create our ideals, change them as we see fit and release them when they no longer benefit us.”  I think that’s such a strong thing to take note of:  you think about stress; stress is a mental thing.  We have the ability to control what stresses us out and what doesn’t.

Zohar: The first part of the definition talks about how stress is a reaction.  Our body is reacting in different ways.  It’s either sending messages or thoughts, to our muscles–all different parts of our bodies.  It affects our hormones and our nerve endings it’s all over the place.  There’s no part of our body that is immune to stress.

The reason why we’re stressing out is that it used to be that thousands of years ago, when we were being chased by something that was going to eat us, we’d get stressed  and we’d either live or die.  And if you lived, the threat went away and you calmed down and you were fine.  And these interactions happened for just a couple of minutes.

Our bodies and lives have changed a lot, but our bodies haven’t caught up to modern day living.  So what’s going on now is that it’s more than just “Am I going to live or die, am I going to be eaten right now,” it’s “traffic is bothering me” and things like that.

These are ideals that we created through society. The way we were born, what we’ve read, our friends, our family, they all shape where our ideals come from.  And these ideals are based on our values and what would you like those to be in our life.

So when you take a moment to figure out, “what’s going on here? what are my values?” stress is going to tell you.  Whether you are conscience of it or not, it’s going to tell you, “Hey you said this is important.”

We can take a look at them and say “These are my ideals, great!”  And now that you’re aware of these, you now have control over things at a level you didn’t have before, so what can you do about it?

Is it working for you?  Is it not?  Can you find a substitution for this, or is it no longer necessary?  Is it something you came up with when you were younger, or something someone told you about and upon further evaluation you realize it doesn’t work for you.  Having that awareness and that kind of approach towards what’s going on with stress is huge, absolutely huge.

Drew: Does that mean that if you get aligned with what you want to do and you’re happy with where you’re at, it’s possible to live a stress-free life?

Zohar: Well, if you live in a vacuum.  I call the book “The Gift of Stress” because it tells us more and more about ourselves.  That to me is part of the reason we are here, to learn more about ourselves.

If you are able to reach the point where there is no stress, life goes on and you continue interacting with people and somewhere along the way, something probably isn’t going to jive with you. So that will have this stress reaction and you get to evaluate it, “is this working for me or isn’t it?”

The better you get at going through this method, the quicker you’re able to evaluate it and deal with the issue.  You’ve heard the message and you’ve learned more about yourself and when you’re done with that, you can move on and your back to not having stress.

Drew: I think that’s a great point.  One of the things you mention in the book is eustress, in terms of the productive stress, the feeling that you have that helps you be productive.

In some of areas of business they talk about creating that sense of urgency so that you don’t fall into the trap that work expands to fill the time that you have allotted for; so you don’t give yourself the entire year to do a single thing because it will take an entire year to do it.

Instead, you have some deadline to keep you productive.  You definitely reference that.  So maybe it’s not always going to be a stress-free life because part of being productive is continuing to work and continuing to grow.

Zohar: A lot of people enjoy having some stress in some situations because they feel it motivates them.

Now the thing with eustress is that it releases the same kind of hormones as regular stress and it’s just a matter of how long it’s out in your system because after awhile it starts causing physiological damage.  It takes a little awhile, but you can’t always be doing that.

For me, when I work with people, I ask them, “Is this part of your life (lets say your office work), is this stressful to you?  Is this something you want to do something about?”

Sometimes people say yes, sometimes people say no.  If it’s not something you want to do something about, that’s fine.  Then it matches your ideal.

It may be difficult, there may be contention, there may be challenge there.  And there’s nothing wrong difficulty or challenge.  They help us build, they help us grow, they help us deal with different kinds of situations.

It’s when people are at the point of “this is really stressful and I don’t want it.”  That’s when there’s an opportunity to do something about it and here are the tools that are going to make that change possible–that’s that great little window of opportunity.

Drew: I have to admit I am a little upset with you as an author because your book not only makes you think about stress and re-evaluate your current situation, but it also makes you do work.

The whole second part of the book is really about using some of these principles you have, getting you to think about your own life and think through things to figure out yourself how you’re going to come out and reduce some of your stress.

It’s obviously great from a book perspective but at the same time it’s not a passive thing you’re going to read and it’s going to magically change your life; there’s actual work involved on your part.

Zohar: The stress is doing work on your body anyway; your body is doing something. So the quesiton is what do you want it to be doing.

I give people the opportunity in the second half of the book, when they’re ready for it, the things they can do that can make a difference and impact on their life.  When you’re going through this, you’re going to be doing it because you want to, not because someone is putting outside pressure on you.

Stress is your reaction, someone else can’t stress you out.  You have to accept what kind of behavior they have in that situation and determine “you know what? I find that stressful.”  If you’re stressed, someone else next to you doesn’t have to be stressed.  They may pick up on your stress and start reacting in empathetic way, but that’s them choosing to be empathetic and opening up to that and being more sensitive to it.  And if that works for them, that’s their choice.

But we also talked about stress and how it motivates us to do stuff.  In the book, I talk about dessert.  When you are going to get dessert, do you get all worked up about it?  Or is it something like “I feel like some dessert, so i’m going to go up and get some.”  I don’t procrastinate on it.  It just happens.  There’s some kind of inner motivation or desire that comes from that, and that’s a big thing missing for some people that feel like they have to have this stress in their life or they’ll just sit on their butts and not getting anything done.  So find out what kind of dessert you like–what’s going to really help you get some desire about that task you put off or makes you feel like you need that outside motivation.

Yeah, you know what? I am giving you a little extra work, but it’s going to feel so much better.

Photo by Forwardcom

The interesting thing is that this might go contrary to things you’ve been thinking for so long.  People might say you’re crazy because you like paying your bills or cleaning your house.  But maybe you’ve found that you like it.

Maybe you find it calming and like being aware of what you spend and that it helps you be more careful about what you’re putting your money towards.  Whatever it is, it’s engaging you in your life, and that’s huge.

Drew: I think that’s a great point you emphasize throughout, really identifying what’s specific to you.

For the second part of the interview, check out The Gift of Stress, Part 2.

Related posts:

1. The Gift of Stress, Part 2
2. The Gift of Stress, an Interview with Zohar Adner
3. Why Stress Isn’t a Bad Thing

Note: This is part 2 of an interview with Improv Wisdom author, Patricia Ryan Madson.  For the audio of the interview, check out Talking Improv Wisdom, an Interview with Patricia Ryan Madson.  For part 1, check out Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 1.

photo by ckornowski

Patricia: Your blog has to do with humor.  A lot of people imagine improvisation is about comedy because we think of something like Whose Line Is It Anyway or the clubs where improv is done.  Improvisation can lead to comedy and the actors and players are doing this kind of improv theater.

But the ordinary person without any “comic ability,” if you will, will find that when they’re truly improvising, a lot of it is just delightful because it’s fresh and not calculated.  And that ends up providing a smile or laugh.  In my classes, we’re laughing all the time, but not because someone is making a punchline or saying a funny joke.  It’s because when you’re really not scripted, there’s something delightful, fresh, human, and alive that comes in a moment of true spontaneous response.  That’s the thing that everybody can benefit from.

So I encourage folks to try to find an improv class if you live some place where there might be one. It’s a great way to develop social skills, have a lot fun, and learn to be more playful.  All those things that I know are dear to your heart and are a part of your work as well.

Drew: Definitely.  You hit on an excellent point there.  There is a specific reason why the site is called Humor That Works.  Humor is often linked to comedy, and there are a number of advantages to people laughing more, but the reason I focus on humor and not just comedy alone is that humor by definition encompasses comedy and things that are funny, but it’s also anything that causes amusement or is incongruous.

To your point on improv, it falls under that umbrella.  Even if you don’t have people laughing hysterically, if you’re doing something unique in a presentation, like using pictures instead of words in your slides, it’s going to be humorous in the sense that people are going to remember it more because they are engaged.

Improv is the same way.   Humor and laughter will come up when you’re improvising, but the skills you learn aren’t limited to comedy–they are applicable in all of life.  You can be in a very serious moment and still take advantage of what improv has taught you.

Patricia: One of things that might be counter-intuitive is that a lot of people try to find interesting,witty, funny or outside the box things to say, and they miss the chance to be absolutely obvious or ordinary.  What you find is that the great improvisers are incredibly obvious; they are not afraid to say the most ordinary thing.

One of the maxims is “be average.” It sounds like really bad advice, especially given to my Stanford students who say, “What do you mean ‘Be Average?’ Aren’t I supposed to do my best and be excellent?”

But what happens when we try to be funny or try to come up with a witty this or that, is that we get outside of our human ability to relate.  If you just say or do what is the most obvious thing to you, it will often be a revelation to other people.

Don’t strive for innovation, just see what seems clear to you and put that forward.  I think we’re often desperately fearful of being dull or boring.  You won’t be if you’re authentic and you’re saying what seems really clear to you.

Drew: That’s one of the things you notice about people who are good at observational humor.  If you look at Jerry Seinfeld or other comedians, they say stuff that other people have thought or looked at, but bring their own unique personality and point of view towards it.  And that’s what makes it interesting and new.

Some of the best improvisers are the ones that state their obvious reaction to a certain situation, because they’ve been shaped by the experiences of their whole lives.  To your point earlier, everything leading up to the moment that you’re in has been preparation for right now.  The obvious statement to you could be revolutionary to others when it’s in the context of an idea, or absolutely hilarious if in the context of comedy.

Patricia: One of the maxims near the end of the book is to “take care of each other.”  I love being around other people who are improvisers because they are often incredibly generous.  They’re not so much looking out for themselves as they are trying to help me out.

I think that is a shift in focus from “how I’m doing and do people like me” to “how are you doing” and “is there something I can do to contribute to my part of your world.”

Taking care of each other on stage is something really juicy and wonderful about improvisers, and is one of the life skills we can from improv.  When we look out for the well-being of our co-workers, our bosses, and the other people we’re interacting with, when we’re generous to them, when we’re kind, and interested in their work, it improves everything.

I think it’s character-building.  I think good improv makes really nice people.

Drew: That’s a great observation.  Many of my friends are people I’ve met in the improv community because there’s an understanding for people to want to help each other.  In the long run, any help you give you’ll probably get that back ten-fold, but you’re not doing it for that reason–you’re just doing it because you know that’s what you can be doing.

So what have you been doing since the release of improv wisdom?

Patricia: It’s been marvelous because the book is like my child, circulating out in the world.  It moves around in different places.  In fact, it’s coming out next week in Germany, and soon in Korea.

Since the book has come out, I’ve gotten invitations to talk about Improv Wisdom or give workshops.  Last year I was in Mexico as the keynote speaker for the Remax Realtor Mexican Conference.  I’ve done a real cross-section of presentations for Buddhist women’s groups, or teachers and educators.  I did a speech at Google.

It seems that improv is one of those things that has applications to business, education, spiritual life and growth–all manner of things.  I have fun showing up to play games and dance, and talk about this.

And it’s brought me to meet someone like you. I’m indebted to Google because they sent me an alert letting me know your blog mentioned my book. I think the Internet is a miraculous way of connecting us all, it’s the ultimate kind of improvisation.

Drew: It really is.  I think one of the most interesting things is that ability to connect.  Actually, I think the Internet helped me find this book.  It was an Amazon recommendation based on other books I had read.  I read it, and by mentioning it on my blog, we were able to connect and discuss the ideas a little bit further.

I agree that improv has a number of applications.  I’ve heard of or have lead workshops for audiences of high schoolers, elementary school kids, at-risk teenagers, people who are working in various jobs–I remember reading a story where Charna Halpurn and iO taught improv to the people at CERN who were working on the Large Hedron Collider–very smart and intelligent businesses.  The applications are certainlty far stretching.

Before we go, is there anything you’d like to point the readers to?  I know you have the Improv Wisdom site, where you can find great information such as previous interviews you’ve done on the book, excerpts and reviews of the book.  You also have an Improv Wisdom blog out there.  Is there anything else that might be of interest to our readers?  Stuff you are working on or that you find interesting?

Patricia: The book is easily available at Amazon.com and Borders.com–any of those online retailers.  If any of the readers are already fans of the book, something they can do is to mention the title to their local library.  Right now the book is in over 270 libraries.  It’s wonderful when a book gets in a library because then it’s there forever for people to read who might not find it otherwise.

Also any reader who gets the book and sends me an email, I will send them a hand-made, personalized laminated bookmark with my autograph.  My email address is improvwisdom@comcast.net or improvwisdom@gmail.com.  I’d be happy to communicate with any readers of the book and send them an autograph bookmark.

Drew: I think that’s great.  The book, at 150 pages, is one of those books that is a quick read, but at the same time, incredibly power in terms of its concepts.

You can tell you are very passionate about improv wisdom, just the fact that you’re willing to have conversations and continue to talk about it to different people–it’s very rewarding.  It great to be able to be read a book and then have conversations about it.

To wrap up, it is a humor blog, so do you have a humorous story or anecdote that you want to share? Either based on Improv Wisdom, or from your four decades of teaching?

Patricia: Well, a woman who was studying improv with me said, “You know we spent that week learning how to say yes to everything.  Recently my daughter came in and said ‘Mommy! Mommy! There’s a monster in my closet.’ And normally I would have given her a reality check and said, ‘No, Mary Lou, there’s no monster. Don’t worry, everything’s alright.’

But you know the idea of saying ‘yes’ sounded kind of–why not? So I said, ‘There is? Let’s go get it.’  I ran in with my daughter and we had this incredible adventure where we found the monster in the closet.  We wrestled it down.  We triumphed.  She screamed. We had a wonderful time.”

There’s something really terrific about saying “yes” to everything instead of always putting your reality hat on.  I love that story and it reminds us that if we can say “yes” more in our lives, we can have some more adventures.  And life might lighten up a little bit in all directions.

Drew: I think that’s a great example and a great way to end, on the power of saying yes.  Well thank you very much.

Patricia: I appreciate being invited, thanks to all the listeners and readers. I hope they have a great improvising day.

Related posts:

1. Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 1
2. Talking Improv Wisdom, an Interview with Patricia Ryan Madson
3. Life Lessons from Improv Wisdom

Note: This is part 1 of an interview with Improv Wisdom author, Patricia Ryan Madson.  For the audio of the interview, check out Talking Improv Wisdom, an Interview with Patricia Ryan Madson.

Patricia Ryan Madson

Drew: Welcome everyone to another Humor Talks interview with a thought leader on humor in the workplace and in life.  Today we’re talking to Patricia Ryan Madson, who is an award-winning teacher and author of Improv Wisdom, a great book on the wisdom that comes from the art of improv.  Welcome and thank you for joining us today, Patricia.

Patricia: Thanks for inviting me, Drew.  It’s an honor to be here.

Drew: So Improv Wisdom is the title of the book you have written, but what is “improv wisdom” as a concept? What does that title mean?

Patricia: What it means is that inside the study of improvisation are rules, maxims, or principles, if you will, that make improv work.  I think a lot of people think improvisers are just really talented people who are somehow born knowing how to think on their feet and be witty.

But after teaching improvisation for more than 25 years at Stanford, what came to me was that inside the study of improvising are rules for how to do improv, which can also be applied in a broader context to how we live, how we do business, and how we think about our lives.

The book was designed to be a manual of those principles, separate from trying to teach someone how to improvise.  There are some good books that teach you how to improvise; I wanted this to be a philosophy book about what improv means, and to point the reader, who might not consider themselves an improviser, to techniques and ideas that could enhance their living.

Drew: That’s one of the things I enjoyed about the book.  Because improv, by it’s nature, is experiential and is something you learn by doing the exercises.  But Improv Wisdom is more about the external benefits you’ll get from learning improv.

In the book, you mention there are 12 maxims of improv.  Is there one in particular you think is particularly relevant in today’s world and the workplace?

Patricia: One of my favorite maxims is the maxim about “notice the gifts.”  It seems to me that an improviser on stage is looking at everything that comes his way, whatever his partner says or does, anything in the environment, as a possible offer out of which he can create a story, scene, or interaction.  What I learned about improvising is that everything is a possibility, that everything is offer, and that gifts are everywhere.  If you start to see life not as a series of problems that are in your way, but as a series of opportunities and gifts, it changes the color of your world.

I think it’s something as simple as seeing the glass half full.  My mind tends to go to the negative or to see what troubles me or what’s a problem, but somehow the improviser develops the muscle that looks at things from a positive point of view.

The other maxim like that is “Say yes.”  Basically it says to build on what’s going on rather than find fault with it.  I think that’s something that’s important for business.  A lot of business meetings tend to be “yes, but” meetings where someone will make an idea or bring up a possibility and everyone will shoot it down, looking for what’s wrong with the offer.

But you can start to develop the muscle that looks at what’s right or what’s possible, even if you’re not sure where you are going.  In fact, if you think about it, improviser’s are never sure because they have no idea, but they’re gleefully willing to go somewhere and hopefully have a good time doing it.

Drew: I definitely agree.  I would say those are two that great maxims, “Everything is a gift” and to “Say Yes.”

Often times when you first start talking about improv concepts and people are learning about “yes and,” they confuse it with a “yes man” mentality, where you’re always saying “yes.”  “Yes and” isn’t about that, it’s about “how can I take what was offered and build on it in a direction that can work.”

When I first started in the corporate world, I thought it was funny because one of the things I learned was that my company didn’t have problems or issues, we had opportunities and challenges.  It’s a funny verbal thing that I thought was interesting, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

“Yes this might be perceived as a problem, but there’s also an opportunity in it. This is our opportunity, how can we turn it around, and  turn what might be seen as negative into a positive.”  Having that mentality is training the brain to think more optimistically.  And various studies show that people who think optimistically tend to attract wealth and long-term success because they believe in themselves and other people.

photo by baikahl

Patricia: There’s science on our side.  Recently a study was done at Stanford of students who had taken an improv class.  The interesting statistic was that students who had taken the improv class had a 40% higher self-esteem and were happier than those who had not taken it.

The study of improv boosts your ability to feel good about yourself.  If you’re learning how to play with each other, accepting your own mistakes, and trying things and failing generously, there’s something about it that is not like being a “yes man.”

There are two ways we look at people who say “yes.” One is the “yes man,” who’s pandering, who doesn’t have a mind of his own and just agrees with everything stupidly.  Then there’s the “can-do employee,” the person who always finds a way to make something happen.  And we think of him in a positive way.  Someone who’s a “can-do person” is someone we want on our team.  Thats my idea of an improviser, someone who shows up and will help make it work.

Drew: That study with Stanford is very interesting.  One of the things I’ve learned from improv class is that if you treat your fellow players like geniuses and poets, they’ll become geniuses and poets because you’ll always be “yes anding” their ideas.  That’s something that applies to the work world as well.  When I teach people improv in the corporate environment, one thing I focus on is getting them to trust themselves with their own material.

Something you mention in the book, that I think is a great idea, is not over-rehearsing a presentation.  You want to have a good understanding of what you need to talk about, but not script it line by line.  By doing that, you’re trusting you know the material well enough and believe in your ability to present, and you’ll give a much more conversational presentation, as opposed to the stiff “I’m reading from a notecard” presentation that everyone falls asleep in.

Patricia: Absolutely.  The exercise I suggest is that instead of writing your speech out word for word, write questions to yourself.  Make a series of questions like “How did I come to know about improv?”, “What is the most important thing you want to tell someone?”, or “What are the three things I learned while teaching?”  If that’s on your notecard, it provokes a naturalness in speech.  It’s a very different quality than if someone is reading a prepared speech and we’re all just looking at our watches.

And though the book’s subtitle is “Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up,” it’s not that I’m against preparation.  What I would suggest is to go ahead and prepare, but then put that away–really show up and use your natural ability to speak and answer questions to run the show.

Most of us wouldn’t dream of not preparing at all, and I’m not suggesting that.  In fact your life is your preparation.  Everything you’ve done–every conversation you’ve had, every movie you’ve seen, every blog you’ve read–are all part of what brings us to this moment to be able to be in an intelligent responder.

Drew: I think that speaks to one of my favorite quotes from the book–”the mind that is occupied is missing the present.”  It’s great to prepare but if you’re so worried about what’s coming four slides from now, you’re missing what you are currently presenting, or if you’re in a conversation, what’s actually being said in that moment.

Patricia: Exactly.  It’s true, and yet most of us imagine that if we’re preparing, that’s what we ought to be doing.  If you are in a circle of people, and everyone is supposed to go around and each tell something about themselves, it’s measurable that you will know zero about what the person just before you and just after you said because you’re preparing your own remarks or you’re worrying about what people thought about you

It’s a challenge to stay in the present.  We’re used to thinking ahead or letting our mind go somewhere else.

Drew: In the book, you have over 40 “try this” experiments.  What would you say is the value of these experiments?  Do you have 1 or 2 that you recommend people take a moment to try?

Patricia: You were right before–you learn improv by doing it, not by reading a book about it, no matter how wise the book may be.  My hope was that people would take these “try this” experiments and learn through their own experiences.

One is as simple as going home a different way.  We tend to be creatures of habit.  If we’re driving home, we go exactly the same way, and our mind goes on automatic.  I suggest, on purpose, go from point A to point B a different way.  Use it as an opportunity to wake up your attention to what’s around you.

There’s something about change that helps us wake up our lazy minds. Improv is about waking up to the reality around you.  It sounds easy enough, but it’s not because they’re are a lot of ways the mind likes to go to sleep and go on automatic.

So that’s one, go home a different way.  A different exercise is to notice something new.  The next time you take a walk on even the same route, see if you can give your mind the challenge of noticing something different.  What is it in the environment that you’ve never saw before.  Challenge yourself to see if you can find 5 new things.

I was doing that this morning on one of my usual routes.  I asked myself “what is it that I haven’t seen before?” “Oh, there’s a bench there.” “Someone put up a sign.” “Someone took down that cross barrier.”

Part of improv training is just waking up to the life that’s around you. Reality is in our face all the time but we stop seeing it because the habit we have of going to sleep.

Drew: That was one of the experiments I liked as well because it goes back to that aspect of paying attention. “What we notice becomes our world” was another quote I highlighted because it’s true.  You can travel the same route every day, but if you can notice what’s different, you can change your perceptions.

I also really liked the “take a circus bow” challenge. If something doesn’t go quite as planned, take a bow anyway.  I did that once when I tripped over something and fell down.  I got up and took a bow.  It helped me to have a laugh, and the people watching me had a laugh as well.  Instead of feeling embarrassed and walking away with my head down, it changed into the mentality “stuff happens and I can laugh about it and other people can laugh as well.”

photo by Randy Son of Robert

Patricia: It’s a lot of fun when I have 20 students in the classroom and we learn that exercise.  When we take the circus bow we raise our hands in the air and say “tada, tadaaa, tadaaa.”  So I get everybody standing up throwing their hands in the air saying “tada.”  It actually feels really good to say that and take a bow.

The idea isn’t that I’m stupid, but maybe I did a weird thing, fell over, or made a mistake.  But if we celebrate our mistakes, rather than stick our head down in embarrassment, it just makes life better.

For the second part of the interview, check out Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 2.

Related posts:

1. Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 2
2. Talking Improv Wisdom, an Interview with Patricia Ryan Madson
3. Life Lessons from Improv Wisdom

Note: This is part 2 of an interview with Bernie DeKoven.  For the audio of the interview, check out The Mind of a Funsmith, an Interview with Bernie DeKoven.  For part 1, check out The Mind of a Funsmith, Part 1.

Drew: You mentioned something interesting there about inviting them to change the rules.  One of the other things you’ve worked on and written a book about is Junkyard Sports.  What are Junkyard Sports?

Junkyard Sports

Bernie: There’s a phenomenon that is familiar to every kid–playing games, sports especially, that you semi-make-up because you’re not in the right space to play them.

You and your sister are sitting in your living room and you want to play basketball and there happens to be a balloon.  You suddenly find yourself playing something like basketball, only with a balloon.  Now you can’t really dribble a balloon but you can bounce it up–so there you’ve got an equivalent of a dribble.  You can’t really effectively get the balloon to go into a basket.  But you can maybe get it to go into a closet, so all of a sudden your closet becomes the basket.

You can see that you can take the essence of a game like basketball and if you don’t have the right equipment and right environment you can still adapt it and find a way of playing it.  And as a result, you have a sense of ownership of the game, you can change the rules of the game if the game gets too boring or too challenging.

There’s a game they used to play called stickball which became a formalized version of street baseball.  How did that get developed?  Some kids wanted to play baseball and they didn’t have a baseball bat so they used a stick.  They didn’t have a real baseball so they made one out of aluminum foil.  They didn’t have a baseball diamond so they used the street.  They learned how to adapt the whole game to the environment and the people they were playing with.

Drew: I remember doing that as a kid, but I also do that now as an adult in the workplace.  Another co-worker and I sit next to each other, and we will sometimes take a stress ball and play what is an essentially a version of cubicle tennis.  We have a lower cubicle wall, so our goal is to bounce it on the other side and we have to throw it back.  So even as an adult in the workplace, when we need to take a break or need to get re-energized, we’ll play a couple sets of Cubicle Tennis.  You think of as a kid doing that, but there are applications even as an adult now.

Bernie: Right.  And because it’s a sport, you kind of now how to play it.  It’s a lot easier than making up a game from nowhere because you have a way of determining that this should be the goal or this is how you take points.

I’ve found that if kids, or anybody really, feels like they are the author of the game they are playing, they aren’t just players, they’re players and designers.  This way they can take ownership of and responsibility for the game.  And that has a lot of relevance to what’s going on on the Internet in terms of games and people’s participation, such as the open source environment.  We’re not just talking about players but players/designers, asking people to take an active role in designing the experience we’re sharing.

Drew: That’s great.  That’s just an aspect of leadership as well.  The truly great leaders are the ones that get the people around them involved in not only the executing of the decision but the actual decision-making themselves.  If someone feels they have ownership in what was created, they’re going to be more passionate and more involved in it.  That’s a great example of the value of play.

Bernie: So we’ve really resolved that thing about the value of play in the workplace and why you should have it.  And the other thing is play keeps people sane.  It maintains the community.  It’s just really amazing how even people you don’t like personally, which can typify a lot of people you find yourself having to work with–you can play with them and have a really good time.  And in that process, develop a positive relationship, one that really turns out to be mutually rewarding and empowering.  That’s what play does when you give it reign in your office place.

Drew: In the number of years that you’ve been working, and you’ve created this list vast number of games, and partaken in your own number of Junkyard Sports, do you have a personal favorite game you enjoy playing?

Major Fun

Bernie: My favorite is the one that I’ve been playing most recently–I’m kind of a game slut.  If I’m having fun doing something, then that’s my favorite.  My other website is majorfun.com where I review board, strategy, and chance games, manufactured games and boxed games.  And that’s another aspect of play.

I’ll review a game and I’ll start playing and think “Gosh, this really is major fun.”  And that’s my favorite game for at least a week.

But there’s one game that’s kind of a Junkyard Sports game that I developed that I’m really very happy with.  It’s now called Found Object Olympics.

As the name implies, you use whatever junk you have with you, whatever’s around the room, in your pockets briefcases, or backpacks.  People get into groups, pool their objects,  and each group develops an Olympic event that you could play on a table top.

I remember one group invented Lipstick Tube Slalom because someone had lipstick tubes in their purse, and someone else had chopsticks, so they invented a kind of slalom race where you had to roll the lipstick tube, using the chopsticks, around other found obstacles.  Calling it the Olympics gives them the model so they know kind of what they’re trying after.  But they have to use a tremendous amount of creativity and share deep communication in order to be able to come up with some kind of fun, silly, challenge that they find actually meaningful enough that they want to share with people.  It’s just a beautiful game.

I recently did that at Lego for a big team-building event for their Lego designers.  Everywhere that I’ve played, it seems to be not only an invitation for delight but an invitation to a lot of deep discussion and conversation about the world, the universe, society, play, creativity, community, sharing, and competition.

I would say that’s the closest to a favorite.  I’ve been working with that for quite some time because I’m very excited about what it does for you.

Drew: I can imagine where that would be a great team-building event.  Not only are you having participants be creative and make use of their environment and be resourceful, but also developing  that aspect of play, team-building and the spirit of competition.

When I teach improv workshops for different groups, whether kids, adults, or companies, one of the things that’s impressive to me as someone instructing them, is seeing all of the creative things they come up with that are completely unique that I never would have thought of.  It’s always great to how see someone whose participating takes that and becomes very creative and you see the type of stuff they come up.  You see that and think, “Wow I never would have thought of combining these things together and now you have this Olympic sport for it.”

Bernie: Exactly.

Drew: Well I think that covers quite a lot of information.  We’ve talked about each your websites.  DeepFun.com has a lot of information on fun and is a great resource for people to check out, again you’ve been working on that for a long period of time.  Then you have JunkyardSports.com which is getting to the idea of Junkyard Sports and that concept of making a sport out of what’s around you and being resourceful.  And finally MajorFun.com, which is also an in-depth site that reviews board games, card games, chance games–games that are great for kids and adults.

Before we go, is there anything else that you feel that the listeners should know?

Bernie: The whole idea of being a funsmith is that you apply the idea of fun to very real things.

I remember one person who lost a spouse in a traffic accident and was trying to recover from that experience.  As a funsmith, I spent a lot of time with him, and my purpose was to help him use play and fun as way of restoring his own sense of life and purpose.

I also wanted to see if I could attach the idea of fun to the idea of meditation.  I was kind of bothered by how somber a lot of people get about their practice of meditation.  There’s a secition called Recess for the Soul on my website and there you can read and listen to stories of my meditations on the “Inner Playground.”

It’s a good thing to explore, to take those ideas of games and play and structure and re-structure them into your own personal conflicts and personal self.

Another thing on that site is a Collection of Pointless Games.  I call them pointless because most of them don’t have any score, so you don’t really count points.  The only real purpose to playing them is to have fun.  I’ve found those to be a very powerful way of helping people reclaim their sense of fun within their own communities.

Those are the two other things that I thought would be helpful.

Drew: I think you touch on important aspect of fun and humor in general.  People feel like sometimes my work is too serious to have fun or this situation is too serious.

I remember doing a stand-up show and after the comedy show, there was a couple in the audience who you came up to me and the headliner and the man started thanking us for getting on stage and talking about silly stuff because it was helping him get through a rough time after his friend had passed away.

That ability to laugh again–I think there’s this human need and human condition to want to do that.  In a serious time, laughter keeps us all sane.  I think it was Gandhi who said “If it wasn’t for laughter, I would have committed suicide a long time ago.”

I think it’s that aspect that allows us to accept and get by in the world.  Especially because there are things that are serious, sad and depressing.  And laughter is a way to come back out of it and get back that sense of life and that sense of purpose.

Bernie: Laughter is very important, and actively playing with each other, with the world, is how you engage and re-engage.  Laughter is the doorway, but the path is play.

Bernie DeKoven

Drew: Thank you very much, Bernie.  A lot of great insight and information here.  We’ll certainly send everyone to DeepFun, but also JunkyardSports and MajorFun as well.  Thank you for joining us on this interview and that’s it.

Bernie: Thank you, Drew, it was fun talking to you.

Related posts:

1. The Mind of a Funsmith, Part 1
2. The Mind of a Funsmith, an Interview with Bernie DeKoven
3. Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 2

Note: This is part 1 of an interview with Bernie DeKoven.  For the audio of the interview, check out The Mind of a Funsmith, an Interview with Bernie DeKoven.

Bernie DeKoven

Drew: Welcome to another interview with Humor That Works.  Today we are talking to Bernie DeKoven, the funsmith, author of a number of websites that deal with play for work and life in general.

Bernie, thank you for joining us.  So what does it mean to be a funsmith?

Bernie: I think of it like being a blacksmith, only for fun.  The job of a blacksmith is to make things out of iron and everlasting material and to repair things.  My goal is to try to help people make things more fun and create ways for them to do it that lasts them for as long they need it.

I’ve actually become more of a master funsmith than a general funsmith because my focus is less on my making things more fun than it is on teaching people how to become their own funsmith.

Drew: How long have you been a funsmith?

Bernie: I would say I started professionally with this in 1968, so 41 years.

Drew: How did you get your start in 1968?

Bernie: I had a masters degree in theater, and there was a new school opening called the Intensive Learning Center, an unfortunate name for an elementary school.  But when they were building the school, they somehow managed to get a quarter of million dollars to build this huge beautiful amphitheater

Which of course they couldn’t justify unless they had some kind of program that was designed to be disseminated.  They hired me to write a curriculum for them in theater.

Drew: What was the focus of the curriculum?

Bernie: It actually took several years to develop the curriculum.  In the beginning it was teaching the kids improvisational techniques, trying to get them to feel comfortable in doing theater.

My goal became less and less to train them to act and do formal theater, and more and more to find out what kind of theater was native to the kids and how I could take that experience and support them, and give them a deeper grounding in whatever they needed to pursue that.

The kids eventually explained to me, very vividly, that games was what it was all about, and that kids’ games are a kind of theater.  This includes all of the games we play before we get into sports.  The result after a few years was a five volume curriculum that described more than 1,000 different children’s social games and provided teachers with guidelines for facilitating children’s play and their exploration of games.  It was called the Interplay Games Curriculum.

Drew: What was the age range?

Bernie: Elementary school kids from kindergarten to fifth grade.

Drew: That was 1968.  Fast-forward to today, what are some of things you are working on?  What is the website deepfun.com all about?

Bernie: Deepfun is about fun. Just pure fun in every way that you can think of and everything that relates to fun.  The purpose is just to help people think about fun and to help me process some of what I continue to be learning about fun as I continue on what I call the “playful path.”

It’s a very deep site, as you can imagine, because it contains stuff that I’ve been writing for years.

Drew: That I think was one of the very impressive things about the site.  If you look at your archives, you have stuff dating back to 2002.  It’s very deep.

So you started out working with kids; have you done work with adults? Exploring the value of play for those of us in the corporate world or that have “grown-up”?

Bernie: My adventure really began almost immediately after I published the curriculum.  The next step with the curriculum was to teach teachers how to use the curriculum.

My very first session with a group of teachers, I had about an hour to work with them.  And I had about 8 games that I wanted to teach to give them a good sample of different kinds of games and the breadth of the play experience so they had more insight into what goes on when kids are playing and the purpose of the kids playing.

I started out playing a game of “Duck Duck Goose” with them.

Drew: How did playing Duck Duck Goose go over with the teachers?

Duck Duck Goose

Bernie: The fact was I could not stop them from playing it.  That was the only game we wound up playing that day because they were having so much fun.  Every time I said, “Now here’s another game” they would say, “No no no, we haven’t finished playing this one yet.”

That was my big lesson in how valuable and relevant the play thing is to teachers and adults.  So then I started having class once a week.  Eventually I bought a farm about 35-40 miles away and turned it into what I eventually called the Games Reserve, which was a adult-focused retreat center exploring all things fun.

Drew: One of the aspects with the teachers playing Duck Duck Goose for the first time in years is it’s a return to the nostalgia of it; there’s the fun and friendly competitive spirit.

What have you found as the reason for people being so involved? Why did people come to the Games Reserve–what did they learn as adults while there? What was the benefit to them to take time out of their busy schedule to play?

Bernie: Let’s go back to Duck Duck Goose because it’s important to understand that the fun that kids have in a game like Duck Duck Goose is because they are playing with some very big and serious things in their lives that they can’t play with any other way.  I think a lot of kids’ play is about that.

In Duck Duck Goose, it’s about learning how you get chosen if you want to get chosen.  You have to learn how to look.  It’s about presentation of self.  If you look too eager you won’t get chosen, if you look too blase you won’t get chosen.  You have to have eye contact with the fox.  How you present yourself become strategies–you are creating a relationship between that fox and your agenda to get chosen or not.  If you are the fox, then the question is which person do you want to pick.  If you pick somebody who’s too slow, then there’s no contest and it’s no fun for you and the other kids know you’re really not playing well.  If you pick someone who’s too fast then you’re not going to be the fox anymore.

You have to really focus on developing your own strategies for picking just the right person, which of course is all about how you are relating to other people in your community.  It has a lot to do with very real, very relevant, understanding of community.  For kids and adults, that’s our big puzzle.  Whether we’re at work or sitting at home–how do we really create and nurture a community that has any relevance to our lives and that can support us.

I think one of the big things that happened for people at the Games Reserve is that they found that opportunity.  Most of the times when we did sessions, people would spend one night or several nights in very sketchy accommodations (I have to admit), but with hundreds and hundreds of games to choose from in a beautiful environment.

It became a very effective environment for people to really explore the relevance of play personally, to develop relationships with other people, to explore the boundaries of those relationships, and perhaps get a little more intimate with people in terms of understanding them and having safe physical contact with them.  We wound up cooking our meals together, setting up the beds, all of it was a very conscious community effort which people found relevant to whatever they were doing, whatever their walk of life.

Some people, for example, worked in prisons–they were guards and prison administrators.  They really found a lot of relevance because it’s a really hard position to be in and to maintain any level of compassion with other people and with each other.  And just getting a chance to let it all go–to play together–helped them really gain insight into how to develop a meaningful community.

A lot of teachers would come, therapists.  There was a guy, Dr. Brian Sutton-Smith, one of the foremost thinkers about play, who was then teaching at the University of Pennsylvania.  He had heard about the Games Reserve and he started bringing his class up.  For him it was ideal because he had been talking about play and now he had an opportunity to give his students a way of exploring play and its relevance directly.

By that time, the repertoire of games that we had was so vast.  I was also writing game reviews and designing games, so the library got larger and larger, and the variety increased.  Anything that had to deal with play, there was something for you to find out about, to research with.

photo by shirleybnz

Drew: The Games Reserve idea and concept is great for building community and relationships–psychologist say that when people experience something together, whether it’s positive or negative, they become closer together.  So if a small group of people survive a natural disaster together, they’ll become stronger.

But with the sense of play and these retreats, you’re creating those positive experiences for them.  So they’re coming together not only experience but because the games themselves are helping them understand their dynamic and their relationship to each other.  With Duck Duck Goose, the social dynamics at work just playing the game to extends to the office place.

Bernie: Absolutely.  The game King of the Mountain is highly relevant to most businesses.

I would also teach them not only how to play the game, but invite them to change the game, to keep the game fun.  So if the game got boring or too challenging, what would you do to make the game more fun for yourself?

That was teaching them to become funsmiths.  It gave them a sense of control over their own reality and an opportunity to test out different kinds of social skills and ways of intervening and ways of designing.  Games are really powerful tools because they are context free social structures. To learn that you can change those structures, and begin to explore them, is really an opportunity to learn first-hand the nature of system dynamics.  Which if you read Peter Senge, is central to his understanding of how you create a more effective business community.

For the second part of the interview, check out The Mind of a Funsmith, Part 2.

Related posts:

1. The Mind of a Funsmith, Part 2
2. The Mind of a Funsmith, an Interview with Bernie DeKoven
3. Talking Improv Wisdom, Part 2